Verse: Relationship - Our Ultimate Hankering
Date: May 18th, 2009
Place: Hilsborough, USA
Transcription: Ramananda Raya Dasa
Editing: Hemavati Radhika dasi
Hare Krishna. Thank you all for coming to the seminar. It was quite suddenly that we decided to have a seminar for today and tomorrow. Last week I was discussing with mother Krishna Priya and mother Golokananda Priya. and then we developed this idea that it would be nice to have a seminar and then we were discussing what should be actually the topic of the seminar and then we kind of resolved or we decided that we should have a seminar on relationship; and what is the need for relationship? Why do we need relationship? And that’s how we came to this concept of ‘Relationship - Our Ultimate Hankering’. Everyone is actually hankering for relationship. Why? And how? Why are we hankering for relationship? And then it leads to the next stage. If we need relationships, then how are we going to develop relationships? Is it going to happen just like that or do we need to make a conscious effort to develop relationship?
These are the two main aspects that we are going to discuss about and then we will see how it develops. Time of course is short just two days and that also just one and a half hour each day. So practically three hours of time we have dedicated to this two days seminar. Anyway, at least we are beginning somewhere. Let us see how far we can go.
Now I will ask you all. I will need four volunteers who are not afraid to speak. Okay, Brandon is one, Guru Gauranga, Cintamani. Okay…So, we have four. Good!
The first participant, maybe for the speaker we can get a chair so that everybody can see the speaker also. Most probably many of you do not know Brandon. Brandon just happened to come here yesterday for the first time. Was it the first time yesterday? Brandon is a student in the university of North-Carolina in Grinsburg. He is from Winston Solemn. He liked it so much just being here yesterday that he decided to stay. He is going to stay here for three days. Today is the second day. How are you liking it?
Brandon: Everything.
BCS: Everything. Wonderful. Here is the microphone. Is it switched on?
Brandon: Hare Krishna. I do not need the microphone. Can you all hear me?
BCS: Well, if that is your volume then you don’t need a microphone.
[laughter]
So, I will request Brandon to relate to us a memorable relationship in your life that you would like to share with others.
Brandon: Well, last summer I met a girl, actually it was in high school, right before I graduated. Her name was Katy. And I was attracted to her and we talked throughout the whole summer and discussed and played and attempted to love but it was very difficult for me because... There was something inside me that could not love her. I had no idea what it was. And I tried and tried and I kept trying to add up a physical relationship of it but it did not work, it made me feel even more….. And I saw a few things in her as the summer progressed, the way I looked at her got worse and worse. And it was very saddening for me because I really did enjoy her company. And it just wasn’t fulfilling, that makes sense. I guess we shared intimate physical relationship but it wasn’t fulfilling like Krishna’s love. And eventually I was kind of, I [unclear] … because I was going to college she was going to high school. So I knew that a goodbye was coming. But I was not quite sure how to do that. It was like my first real relationship with anyone. I never had any kind of girlfriend or anything like that until that time in my life for whatever reason. And it was very difficult for me to let her go. I kept digging in myself getting drawn back to her over and over. Even though I knew it was not working. There was nothing left of the relationship that could be salvaged. But I kept kind of wanting her, desiring her. I guess eventually, it kind of culminated and I had to forget her completely. I went off to college. And I just stopped thinking of her and got caught up in college and this whole new world. That’s how it kind of ended. But since then it has actually been wonderful. Because I kind of re-discovered a friendship with her. It’s just a marvelous friendship that we developed. I told her about the Krishna conscious movement and my desire to come here and she supported me a hundred percent. She is more of a Christian God-believer, I think she truly believes with her heart she supported me in [unclear].
BCS: Thank you, Brandon. Thank you very much [Devotees applause]. Thank you. So now we will request Guru Gauranga, the second speaker to come forward. So I would like you to analyze why that relationship did not work at first but then it developed into a nice and wholesome relationship.
Guru-Gauranga Dasa: Okay, in the beginning of Brandon’s presentation he mentioned that, he said that he was very attracted to her. So the initial relationship was spurred on by a bodily attraction which most relationships are based upon anyhow between men and women. And then he got to know her and he felt that certain things about her he felt was incompatible. He said that he didn’t think that there were parts of her he could love but then as their relationship developed he was faced with the decision that this is not going to last for a long time. And being an honest man he decided that he has to break it up with her. But then the real relationship seemed to have kicked in that seemed to be based on more of her as a person and her personality rather that the physical attraction. So he had grown to love her in a certain sense, rather than the physical attraction in the hope that things would work out. So that was my perception.
BCS: Thank you, thank you Guru Gauranga. Now I call the third speaker, Cintamani. So do you agree with Guru Gauranga Prabhus’ analysis?
Cintamani: Yes
BCS: Yes? Okay. So what will be your perception of this analysis? Why do you agree with his analysis?
Cintamani dasi : I think that ultimately because we are not the body, if we base the relationships on body to body, then it won't last and it will be frustrated. So if we try to find a connection with someone on a deeper level, besides just the physical body, that will find a deeper base of happiness, that will actually enable you to connect more to that person and a stronger, more internal love, specially spiritual…
BCS: Can you elaborate on that? What is the difference? What is actually bodily relationship? What is spiritual relationship?
Cintamani dasi: Bodily relationship is selfish. Basically what can I get out of the relationship from someone. And a spiritual relationship is selfless and it wants me to give what we have to the other person and not thinking what we can get.
BCS: Very good, very good. Now in the case of Brandon, did he develop a spiritual relationship with Katy?
Cintamani Dasi: No
BCS: But still their relationship developed. Why do you think or how do you think it happened? Okay, I can give you a cue. There is an expression : “Distance makes the heart grow fonder. Right? [laughter] Why is that ? It was not quite spiritual, it was on a bodily platform the relationship, but still the distance made them more, you know, the relationship became deeper because of that physical distance.”
Cintamani Dasi : I am not very sure I can answer that.
BCS: Would anybody else like to answer to that? Or maybe we can ask Brandon to answer the question himself. Because he has it from the horses’ mouth. I mean, I hope you don’t mind that expression.
Brandon: Ah, no, no, no… The thing is, it was not entirely physical. It was not entirely a physical relationship. At first it was a very friendly and happy relationship, playing games together. [unclear] I mean there was a lot of joy. But the bodily relationship did eventually kind of take over [unclear]. We were very happy by being together. [unclear]
BCS: Did it have something to do with “heart” I mean hurt? This relationship that developed when you left Solemn and you went to Grinsburg.
Brandon: The thing what happened was, her body, her physical body [unclear]. What I was remembering was the joy that we actually did share and the fun and that kind of [unclear].
BCS: Okay, good, good. Anyone else who likes to elaborate? Mother Krishna Priya?
Krishna Priya dasi: When they were interacting, contact the relationship first, like he said, it was very playful and very joyful. It is almost like the experience we have when we were children. We are not thinking about our body. We are just appreciating what we are doing together, everything seems so magical and so wonderful. And then when one gets involved with what we call the lower chakras, the energy is going down. And then because there is no satiation of the desires, it is explained in the Bhagavad-Gita that you start pouring more and more ghee on a fire and you it gets bigger so as a last resort. So as the lust increases the desires will increase. When there is frustration [unclear]. It is like going through the modes of nature. And then you feel like “I cannot be satisfied” like that song of the Rolling Stones: “I can get no satisfaction.” Then when you were separated there was that cool down side Then you were able again begin to use your intelligence and to remember [unclear]. Then you were able to advance. So you kind of went through the different modes of nature also. It is like going through some goodness, then there was passion, then ignorance… Then there was separation and there was time for reflection.
BCS: Thank you, thank you mother Krishna Priya. Mother Lilasuka also wanted to say something, you wanted to comment.
Lilasuka dasi: The comment is that perhaps the latter relationship that developed was able to be one that had more respect and appreciation than the initial relationship.
BCS: Yes, very good. Now again, maybe Lilasuka you can elaborate on that point, the one that I asked to Cintamani? She spoke about two kinds of relationship, physical and spiritual. And she mentioned that physical relationships do not work. It’s only when the relationships are based on the spiritual foundation then only the relationships get its actual dimension, right? Here we see that with Brandon. There were two aspects of their relationship. First he felt it did not work, like it is not going to work. That means he did not feel that this relationship is going to last forever. Then when he left and went away, he went to the university and they were separated, then this relationship took a more mature or more developed shape, where they developed friendship which gave it a more beautiful dimension to that. Now, how will you define this relationship?
Lilasuka dasi : How I will define it? In terms of spiritual [unclear]?
BCS: Well, yes, if you are taking it into these two considerations, bodily relationship and spiritual relationship, like how will you categorize this relationship?
Lilasuka dasi : Well I would say it is more related to the subtle body, like it is more from the mind and a mental platform.
BCS: Very good, go on. Elaborate that. Mind you, there are many... I believe there are some guests, newcomers here. For their sake maybe you can elaborate on that by what you mean by subtle body relationship.
Lilasuka dasi : The subtle body consists of subtle mind, intelligence and ego. And it seems to mean that in bodily relationships there is less friction with the mind an ego. And more on a platform of enjoying each other on a bodily aspect, more on a platform of respecting aspect, that you appreciate one another which is more on the subtle bodily platform.
BCS: Well, okay, very good. Anyway, I will also add a few points here.
Lilasuka dasi : Please! [Laughter]
BCS: You see, we have two different types of bodies, we have two different types of material bodies. One is a gross material body and the other is the subtle material body. The gross material body is this body, made of earth, water, fire, air and ether. And beyond that there is the subtle material body which is composed of as you said mind, intelligence and false ego. These are the three subtle material elements. The gross body actually has a network of senses. The fulfillment of the gross bodily relationships are in the gratification of the senses. By deriving some gratification, meaning the senses desire something. When those desires are fulfilled then our senses are gratified and we derive some pleasure. The gross bodily relationships are based on sense gratification. Say for example, the senses are craving something, the senses are wanting something. When those desires are fulfilled there is some sort of joy, there is some sort of happiness.
And so, as it came out that the first aspect of the relationship was on the gross bodily platform. Then you pointed out that the next aspect of the relationship, when it developed due to the separation, was actually the relationship based on the subtle bodily platform, like on the mental platform, on the intellectual platform. Like memories, mental means the memories, the recollections are there in the mind. Plus, at that time, Brandon started to see Katy in a different light, not just for the sake of his sense gratification, whether he will admit it or not. This is our kind of analysis on the basis of our knowledge and understanding. At that point because this sense gratification was in the background, he started to see her in a different light. The memories of those days as mother Krishna Priya pointed out, going out in the park and appreciating the beauty of nature together. Things like that, all those memories started to come back. Then he started to see her from a different perspective all together. And in that subtle bodily platform a relationship developed which culminated into deep friendship. So this is the difference.
BCS: Now I will request Cintamani to elaborate on ‘what do you mean by spiritual relationship?’
Cintamani Dasi: By the spiritual relationship I meant one that was connecting the soul with the soul, instead of the body, the mind, intelligence anything that covers, the material energy, the rather than the actual, internal spiritual soul. The relationship with all the other internal spiritual souls and Krishna. Because our ultimate…
BCS: Okay, I will ask you a question here, it is not a cross examination. [Laughter] You say spiritual relationship is between soul to soul. When living entities are oblivious of their spiritual identity as a soul can they possibly develop that relationship? [Laughter] Can they?
Cintamani : I would say, only if they get the knowledge first.
BCS: Yes, they become situated on the spiritual plane first, yes? So, okay. Now, how can one become situated on the spiritual identity to begin with?
Cintamani : With spiritual knowledge, which we get from scriptures and we realize that we are not the body and then we start understanding that we are a spirit soul.
BCS: Okay, here I will again make another point. Say, you are there in a dark room and there is an incense stick burning, right?. Some light is there from the incense stick burning. With that light can you see your face in the mirror?
Cintamani : No